Friday, February 8, 2013

Amway WWDB Teaching?

In the past, we have had some really good discussion on this blog recently about how someone can build a business in Amway without abusing downline. I was an IBO in WWDB, and I was given really bad advice from upline. Some of these uplines are still around and apparently still giving some of the same bad advice to downline. Having said that, I believe there are some factions within WWDB who may be operating differently. I contributor on this blog, James C. has explained in some of his comments, how he operates, contrary to the mainstream WWDB teachings. Thus I was inspired to write this post. My sponsor and uplines were Harimoto, Wolgamott, Duncan. We were taught that Amway saves marriages, and that the rest of the world gets divorced. Ironically, I believe Wolgamott is now seperated and possibly divorced or in the process of getting divorced. Greg Duncan was touted for his financial acumen and told the audience that only stupid people took out loans, even to purchase a home. Then we find out he was in bankruptcy proceedings with interest only loans. This is just a side bar. I will further explain what other advice was given to rank and file IBOs. My sponsor and uplines told us that we should never miss a meeting. Period. That missing a meeting was setting a bad example for your group. In fact we should always purchase extra tickets to meetings and functions as an incentive to bring guests. We were taught that in addition to standing order, we should be purchasing 5-7 extra tapes/cds each week. Afterall, you can't listen to the same recording each day if you are core. We were told that if you had downlline who quit, you could not cancel a standing order because it was too much trouble to call upline who called upline who finally reached Greg Duncan to cancel a standing order. I found it ironic that they NEVER complained about calling upline who called upline who finally reached Greg Duncan to ADD a standing order. Our group was also told that nobody made a cent of profit from the tools. A lie that nobody has ever been accountable for to this day. If selling products were ever mentioned, it was only so IBOs could earn money to buy more function tickets and/or standing orders. Our upline also enjoyed holding meeting after meeting, AFTER the functions. Thus IBOs went home after 3:00 in the morning at times, even on nights when the job was waiting for them the next morning. Our upline also taught more tenured IBOs that money wasn't important in the business because we are friends for life. The group was taught that we could have our families skip meals in order to buy more tapes/cds. IBOs were told that they should NEVER quit, unless they give up on life as they would be doomed for financial failure. This is some of the bad advice I heard from some WWDB leaders. These leaders are still around today and I believe some of this is still taught. What does your upline advise?

139 comments:

  1. is their any good advice from these so called business Leaders

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    1. work hard and you'll succeed. but you don't need to be in amway to know that!

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    2. Heard that lie right from puryear's very own mouth....That not a cent is made from the tools!!!

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  2. You know what I find hilarious, is the fact that you are wasting your breath on a company that apparently hurt you and your pride, I think its because you actually gave up on yourself is why you are pissed off and as humans tend to do is pass the buck because we can't admit the truth to their selves. Comments you made on the tax issues are idiotic at best, yes, I agree that when you get a tax return you are not making money because you are not. It is up to the business owner to get as many tax breaks they can so they can use a portion of what they spent the earlier year for this year costs. The comment that anonymous said about how you lose $3250 of the $5000 you put in the Amway business is stupid because duh!! you only get portions from the money put in. Now, yes, you do lose 3250, (which is a lie cause you don't spend that much in one year unless you are paying for three IBO's yourself but ok we will go with that figure) but you are learning from successful people who have apparently made it and you are bettering yourself with the self help books recommended. Now, I agree that not all people want to waste that money for self improvement, but you spend that 5000 on other stuff anyway, except only difference is you don't get 1750 back at the end of the year because there is no tax breaks for recreation its all gone, unless you were able to start another business which requires a heck amount more money then 5000 to start with.

    Now, with this blog, I have been to some of these functions you speak of and I have never heard the big guys say Amway or WWDB saves your marriage, they do say that it takes a lot of stress off the marriage when you make money at this business because the root cause of most marriage problems is financial, and as for the Wolgamott issue the guy she was married to apparently couldn't keep his hands off other women, must have been that massage lotion Amway sells it tempts men to rub down other women, damn that Amway. And the Greg Duncan thing about Bankruptcy issue still does not prove that this business does not make money. Maybe he is stupid with money every think of that? Also, what about lottery winners why do they seem to be rich and within three to five years are worse off then before winning? Some people are just stupid when it comes to handling their finances. Anyway with the rest of the stuff you say here sounds like you had an idiot for a upline. There is a reason I wrote this comment! I don't know maybe its the fact that I want to thank you for me reading this because the more you spread these issues of your problem with Amway the more I study Amway (and I don't mean listening to some top wig I actually sat for three hours and reading the codes and conduct of Amway which tells you what you should or should not do with certain upline reps and how to treat customers and ibos etc etc) and the more I see that Amway is for me. Thank you so much :)

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    1. First if all, the company that I'm criticizing is WWB. My comments are my experience. You're probably an apologist so you can't see the trees from the forest. Maybe the reason why you don't hear teaching about WWDB saving marriages is because it was taught often by Brad Wolgamott of WWDB - who went on and got divorced. LOL LOL LOL Fucking hypocrite.

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    2. If you really read of code of conduct you'd probably know what it's called....

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  3. I find it funny that you take one guys problem and you take it out on the whole business, you will always have bad apples in every business. Why would this business be any different? You probably looked up to this guy a lot and it pissed you off that he would say this stuff and find out he did another. People are always going to be fallible, and you can't have people as heroes because they will always let you down, now some show remorse for what thy have done, but in this case Brad did not he could care less, and also because he was such a "dynamic speaker" he took bunch of people from WWDB and started his own thing and is still with Amway, what I would like to know is how people are stupid enough to follow him after all that he did and wasn't even sorry... The awesome thing about what goes around comes around, or Karma, is that he is going to get his. As for his wife she apparently has an exploding business, the story is that she had to learn how to "prospect" people again because her ex-husband did all that when they were together and she would look after the customers side of things. What I am trying to say is don't let a bad egg ruin your outlook and again even with your stupid ass upline you had they are idiots. Its people like your upline and people who trick people into coming to a meeting or stupid ass people as you said in one of your topics that goes around sharing about the miracle water that are the bad eggs, you will always have idiots like that in any business, they are trying to take advantage of people, and its up to people like me and yourself to question their tactics to tell Amway what is going on and not go into things blind, because as far as I know Amway does not tolerate those kinds of people and enough evidence in what that person is doing and Amway will pull the plug on him...Anyway all I am saying is its great you are venting and saying your piece, but sometimes life just sucks no matter where it comes at us at the time, it just happens that WWDB was the one.

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  4. He Diean.

    What has Amway done to the bad apples that teach unethical and possibly illegal things?

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  5. I can't say I'm having a negative experience thus far. I had hit the 9% level and saw my performance bonus quintuple compared to the 3% performance bonus two months earlier (July 2012 - $15.14 to August 2012 - $88.68 - wholesale to retail on personal use and sales was on top of that). The amount itself in a one shot deal isn't that exuberant, true. But having that quintuple with only one active downline leg has me excited to see how that will continue to grow as we solidify a solid foundation in width.

    I have been very satisfied with the accountability and transparency of my line of sponsorship (Whalen/Wagner/Payn/Compton/L. Wolgamott/B&J Duncan), have been aware of and witnessed 5 - 7 retirements of crossline leaders in the Alberta and Vancouver markets and have developed a great relationship with the current downline leg that we have running with us and are excited for their growth.

    It really sucks that there have been so many negative experiences out there because it definitely clouds out the good ones. Happily I can say so far so good :)

    Regards,

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    1. Hi Ginger, thanks for the comment. Can I ask if you are on the tools system and what you monthly costs are for those tools?

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  6. I am an IBO with Amway living in Alberta. I have yet to enter WWDB. However, I can't wait to get in as soon as I have finished my apprenticeship this fall.

    I felt I needed to comment here and give my 2 cents. I am incredibly greatful that I met my upline (the Pipes). They have changed my life for the better without doubt. Just the personal development I have experienced in the last year is indispensable. I have become a better person, have improved my marriage, and become a more valuable "asset" at my 9 to 5 job. I have changed my reason for wanting to build this business from simple monetary wealth to dreaming way bigger. I want to build so that I can touch more lives, and get other people into the same place I am in in life.

    WWDB does not just want to create these diamonds. They want to enrich lives. That is why Diamonds are still "core". Because they know the feeling when you can change lives for the better. I am thankful for each and every one of them, stupid decisions and all. You claim you were giving "tools" out like candy? Well, I imagine that's because you didn't do follow up. You won't get your books and cds back if you don't ask for them.

    Of course you need to hype people up to sponsor. That's just the process of opening eyes to what they CAN have in life. People don't know what they want until they know what the CAN have.

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    1. Mate, sorry to break your bubble. I agree that the self help books are a great motivator and reading makes you a better person, but did you realise that this motivational tool-kit is the main business of your Emerald and above sponsors who are making a merry buck at your expense. Somehow IBO's are falsely led to believe that the selling the product / consuming it one-self is the way to the top. I wish you took your IBO hat and don the hat of a mathematician and work out some real numbers to see if you would indeed make money. Infact, to be very blunt you will have blood on your hands for ripping unsuspecting IBO's or your downline if you give into the system given that there is less than a 1% chance of them being financially free and there are many broken families owing to this. I wish you applied the learnings from the self help books into your job or your own business and not set yourself up for financial ruin by equating it to Amway. Start to buy your selfhelp books of your own volition and you will end up spending less and gaining more in your life. Also, remember, if something is too good to be true...it definitely IS. Regards, Vish

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  7. Hi Kevin, did you start an Amway business to be a nicer person or to make money?

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  8. Sometimes you just need to tell a loser he's a loser. You lost Joecool. You let the negative people knock you out and attempted to become an advocate of theirs? How is your job working out? What's your bosses financial statement look like? How about his marriage. Enjoy the 40/40 plan Joe. Me personally I finished my 40/40 plan 33 years early.

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  9. What negative people? I quit because I wasn't making money even after reaching 4000 and doing what I was told.'

    Good for you. You finished your 40/40 plan. You're just full of shit anyway. Prove it. Publish your name so we can verify your level,'

    I'll be waiting while the crickets chirp.

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    1. The only way you don't make money as an Eagle 4000pv is if you don't listen and your upline was smart, recognized that you (Joecool) were an idiot and built a 3500pv taproot leg. The plan is setup to reward people who do the work. You got passed because you were lazy, and by reading most of your posts I can tell you didn't listen. You are a liar. Period.

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    2. Fuck you. I'm no liar. I lost money BECAUSE I listened to my upine. They basically "advised" me to spend all my profits on tools and functions and edified me for it. They were low life crooks.

      Who the hell do you think you are?

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    3. Joecool, i have come to respect your posts which are backed by adequate facts to prove how this is a conning business, but i would like to give you some brotherly advise to refrain from using vulgar language. I understand you must be really upset for having fallen prey to such a devious scam, but dont let go your demeanour to answer an internet troll who is out there to ruin your reputation and is provoking you(for what you know, he must be somebody who has lost more than you, but putting up a brave face). I wish you a better life. Iam having to select anonymous after reading some disturbing news about being spied upon, but i mean well. I have come to read most of your blogs and respect your opinion. Keep up the good work and keep out the bad lang. Rgds, Vish

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  10. Looks like you've attracted a few cult ridden haters to your blog. Brainwashed, asleep at the wheel candidates for the mythology of Scientology. Their guidance system: 'blind leading the blind' stumbling through the Amway gates of hell!

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  11. LOL, ain't that the "truth about amway"?

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  12. Joecool I am just curious as to your fully explained experience and why your business was not profitable at 4000 PV... I am a new ibo and looking for actual experiences to relate to, not my upline... I know what they want to tell me

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    1. Hi Drew, thanks for your comment. I was not profitable at 4000 because I did what my upline advised. To keep investing in tools. The expectation was for IBO's to attend all meeting, including mainland seminars, They also expected us to purchase 7-9 additional tapes, in addition to standing orders.

      Keep in mind that in my IBO days, WWDB leaders lied and said they did not profit from the sale of tools. Not they admit it, but they downplay the amount of money they make.

      If you have more questions, feel free to ask. And you might find your answers in reading a few more articles here.

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    2. Joecool, it is interesting to me how I can know all the people you worked with and have such a different experience. All I know is that it was made really clear to me that I was an independent business owner and no one has ever had the power to force me to do anything irresponsible with my money. Quite the opposite I have taken the optional advice they gave me and gotten out of tens of thousands of dollars of student loan debt and built a solid business.

      The main issue here is the decisions an individual makes. If you were an employee I would say that you have a very good point, but you were not. You were an independent business owner. Anyone not making at least $1500 a month as a 4000PV is not doing what wwdb teaches anyway. I know people that went 4000PV and made nothing because it was down one leg and in my experience I never made less then $2000 per month at 4000PV. So PV level means nothing, its all about structure.

      Also there is a 180 money back guarantee through wwdb on any BSMs. Why not return them if you did not get value out of them?

      In the end people choose to make their own experience in this business because in the end it is the independent business owner, not the upline, that makes the choice.

      I just got back from Ada, MI on the new platinum conference and it is was amazing to see what is behind out business. There were 600 people there! That was a lot of new Platinums. It does work! Will it work for everyone? I honestly don't think it for everyone. It takes people willing to put in hard work and think independently. If an individual is use to just following what a boss says and can't independently think I don't think they will do well in this business because leaders need to be able to think for themselves after they get input from a coach. If I were to get the advice you got specifically I would not have done it if it didn't make sense. I take responsibility for my decisions both good and bad.

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    3. I made a profit but I was told that a serious business owner reinvests it all into tools. Plus traveling from Hawaii to mainland functions are very expensive. Even if you are platinum, you have many downline losing money that they will never get back. The BSM guarantee is for unused materials. I bet they would never refund money on a function.

      New platinums is not proof that it works. There are new lottery winners all the time but the lottery is not a good way to make an income.

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    4. Maybe in your experience you had people losing money that are not getting it back, but in my team that is simply not the case. I live in Honolulu and we fly to the mainland as well.

      The truth is in Hawaii about 80% of the people we start live paycheck to paycheck. Amazingly even doctors, nurses, and lawyers out here live paycheck to paycheck to a very high degree. If you were to take anyone we coach who has been with us for a year or more and has truly budgeted, saved, and started paying off debt they are way ahead of that 80% with nearly all of them with 3 months of savings in the bank or more. If they had not got around wwdb they would most likely still be living paycheck to paycheck.

      Serious business owners need to duplicate success meaning without sponsoring anyone they need to change their unsuccessful job mentality habits when it comes to budgeting and where their money goes so they can have a profitable business by itself. If everyone was losing money then why would they stay in? That would be crazy. That's not how wwdb does it. It is not hard to get 50-100PV of client volume, people just need some help to do it.

      When you say, "I was told that a serious business owner reinvests it all into tools." That is job mentality. WWDB teaches people critical thinking skills and you learn how to think for yourself. For example when we budget with people it is made very clear to them that the one responsible for all decisions is them. If there was ever a negative cash flow situation our advice would be to fix it right away and then we would help them get it right. That is how you build an ongoing income, otherwise it would be a job.

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    5. Yes, people live in debt. Take Greg Duncan for example. Bankruptcy.

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    6. Anyone on your team attending functions is losing money.

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    7. Who's your diamond? I bet they teach the same stuff I was taught but you're still a believer so you have rose colored glasses.

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    8. If bringing a straw man is how you feel better about failing in the business then that is entirely different then sticking with the reality of what I am talking about.

      We have people making money and going to functions because we teach them how to budget and we help them make money.

      In regards to Greg Duncan you are deceiving people to think that Greg's bankruptcy had anything to do with the Amway business. Greg Duncan had an outside business that got sued for 250 million dollars and he won the law suit but the legal cost was 9.5 million.

      What Greg did was a clean bankruptcy...Chapter 7. Meaning that he paid every single penny back. That is something entirely different then running away from debt.

      Seriously, how many people do you know that have the seven figure cash flow to overcome something like that? It is seriously wrong to confuse chapter 7 with chapter 11. Greg took responsibility for what happened and I respect him more because of it. Not only that Brad and Greg were open about it and didn't try to hide anything because of how it might appear to look bad when it really was not. How many people do that? That is integrity.

      Rather than finding what's wrong with someone else why not take that energy and find out what's right? There are people who build this business the right way and do it the right way. My mentor is Brad Duncan. He has never lied to me, he has always told me the truth, and he was the one that taught me how to budget and it has no only changed our lives but the lives of many in Hawaii. We helped people pay off hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt last year and we are not stopping there! These islands need more of us to be part of the solution!

      In the same way my experience is not everyone's experience, think that maybe your experience is not everyone's experience. I believe we all make are own experience and for many this business is a great option. There were over 11,000 new platinums last year worldwide with the average platinum USA income over $40,000 per year. There were also many that quit. So what? No one will ever know what they could have been unless they try.

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    9. Haha. You lie. Greg Duncan spend more than he was making, Tha's why he's bankrupt. Greg Duncan told us how STUPID it was to make loans. Tell me how he had his homes foreclosed if it paid them off in cash like he said on stage?

      Your business is based on lies. Your downline are spending the same as you on tools but making less. They are losing money, just like you are.


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    10. 11,000 new platinums just means they had over a million downline losing money and about 11,000 old platinums who did not qualify.

      Prove me wrong.

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    11. I'm just telling you the truth. I don't want to argue with you but guaranteed this won't be resolved here. You said you live in Honolulu. Why don't we meet in person and talk? I got nothing to hide. We may not agree but at least I can understand where you are coming from and you can understand where I am coming from. How about meeting at the Coffee Bean Manoa? I am available 2pm tomorrow (Saturday).

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    12. What is it you want to talk about? Greg Duncan's lies?

      When I was an IBO, I was lied to by your glorious leaders. Those lies costed me a lot of money.

      When I discovered the lies, I started blogging about my experience to help other and to warn prospects. My blog and a previous blog have reached over a million site visitors. Many were helped thru my experiences.

      I have no interest in meeting you. IBO's have threatened my life in the past.

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    13. Who's your upline diamond? Tsuruda?

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    14. My upline is Brad Duncan. I have been taught and we teach our team to follow no man blindly. You are your own boss. I just want to talk to you about your experiences. I have no desire to argue points with you, obviously you were very hurt by what happened and I just want to listen. I'll buy you coffee.

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    15. Thanks for the offer but no thanks. I wasn't hurt, I was lied to and ripped off by people like Brad and Greg Duncan. They swore from stage that nobody made a profit from the sale of standing orders and functions. They lied and denied that Greg was bankrupt. They lied about paying for everything in cash. Funny how they denied Greg's bankruptcy when there are public Montana records showing his bankruptcy. Do you deny it too?

      Maybe some of that could have changed but my guess is that you just don't see the lies because you are still building the business.

      My objective is to make sure people don't get fooled by lies or tricked into thinking Amway is a viable business because clearly, it is not for the vast majority of people.

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    16. Greg filed chapter 7 and he did not take responsibility for his bad decisions.

      http://www.amquix.info/duncan_bankrupt.html

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    17. Just regarding from what I have read, for the most part you feel lied to about business support materials being a non profit enterprise and those in your business were paying more for business support materials then what they were making in profit.

      Every since I've been building this business every CD has disclosures clearly stating that the "income depicted may represent income earned from the sale of businesses support materials or other sources of income or investments."

      In addition to that when people register it is very clear that there is a 90 day unconditional money back guarantee on the entire registration cost, any products purchased, and any business support materials purchased from an approved provider of which wwdb is an approved provider. It is made clear in the registration that all business support materials are optional and subject to a no questions asked money back guarantee the first 90 days.

      I can tell you that anyone who has not engaged with us and made profit in the first 90 days we have got them all their money back or at least offered to get all their money back on any products or business support materials. That's what we have been taught by Brad Duncan and wwdb. It is not to screw people but to treat people right, because if we screw people it hurts our business in the long run.

      Specifically regarding CDs (they were tapes when you were in) there is no income earned on CDs. They are $2.50 a piece with free shipping (Even to Hawaii or Jamaica) and no income is earned on them. In the end it is clearly an individual's choice whether or not they use the tools available. WWDB is a for profit LLC and teaches business owners to earn a majority of their income from Amway. That is why they teach width.

      This is not a job it is a business. Every one is in control of the decisions they make. Our business is growing because we believe in giving guidance that helps our people grow and make money, if we did anything to put them in an unprofitable situation that would shoot ourselves in the foot.

      I'm not defending other people's decisions in the business because in the end part of being a business owner is taking responsibility for your own decisions. I will take responsibility for my decisions and the overall environment of my team. So on my team individuals run profitable businesses or we helped them get their money back.

      I would like to meet you, I think even if we disagree on all this we would get along. If we do meet I will keep everything confidential and I do not need the same assurance from you. I just want to listen and hear you out.

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    18. Yes, the cds have disclaimers but I notice you've skirted the part about Brad and Greg Duncan telling bold lies to the group.

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    19. The cds and functions are the reason why so many business builders lose money. Hawaii has higher travel costs so a major function can wipe out a lot of profits. And the functions line the uplines with the most profit. Do you deny that Greg Duncan was bankrupt?

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    20. As I said, I won't meet any IBO's in person because I've gotten numerous death threats and my anonymity is a premium for me.

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    21. I don't know what you mean by lies told to the group. It was Greg Duncan that broke the news about his bankruptcy situation several years ago. He has publicly talked about it at functions, on voicemail, and its on CD too. Listen to his Rally, he goes in a lot more detail then the website you posted.

      Its been public information for a long time. This all happened from a lawsuit he won where the legal cost was 9.5 million. It was all outside of the Amway business.

      If business builders in Hawaii are not making money then they don't go to the functions on the mainland. Its the serious ones that are making money that go if they choose to. The fact is a lot of them are making money and we've helped just from our team people pay off hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt! Now that's the facts! Hawaii needs more of that!

      We have major functions out here in Hawaii too at great cost to WWDB. Those cost money to be put on. They really do a lot to lower the cost for all of us.

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    22. How long have you been in Amway? When Duncan went bankrupt, IBO's like yourself denied it. In other words, Duncan lied about it at first.

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    23. Duncan also lied about not making money off functions and lied about buying all his homes in cash.

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    24. You cannot build a big business with ony serious business owners. You need lots of IBOs, usually more than 100 to go platinum. And that level is break even when you factor in business expenses. I believe the Duncans are still lying to you but you don't see it. If Duncan had so much money, he wouldn't have had to go bankrupt. Where's all his cash or is he lying about that lawsuit as well? You have no way of knowing for sure isnt that right???

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    25. I have known the Duncan family since I was 8yrs old...that would be for 20yrs now. Not every business decision they have made outside of the business has been a smart one, but despite that the Amway business has been the hero of it all. Have they made mistakes? Absolutely, they will be the first to tell you, but do they tell the truth about it? Yes, they do. If there is one thing I know its that they tell the truth. That is why I decided to start building this business a couple years ago, I started traditional businesses, and did very well in corporate America, but the integrity was lacking in corporate America and traditional businesses had too much overhead and headaches. I'm a smart guy, so are my parents... a person may be able to fool someone for a season, but for 20 years? Come on...give me some credit.

      Truly get to know what's going on rather then reading opinions on the web and you will know. I can sense fake people a mile away. People in Hawaii are great at that. Get to know a leader face to face in person in non-business settings and you will know. If you burn people in Hawaii you won't have a business. There are examples of that in Hawaii for sure but there are also examples of people of integrity where they have many people that have stuck with them for 20yrs like the Tsuruda family. This is a business for authentic, truthful people, the others get found out in short order.

      In the end I take responsibility for my own business not there business. That is the business owner mentality. If they were to say something that conflicts with my values I would take responsibility to not do it. That is the difference between this business and a job.

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    26. Then I'm sorry to inform you that your friends are liars. They initially denied Greg's bankruptcy until they coulc no loger hide it. I have tapes where they say diamonds pay cash for everything and people who take loand are suckers. Brad Duncan cut a tape where he said leaders could not cancel a standing order. It was a true north tape. It was too much trouble to call upline who called upline to cancel a standing order. Funny they did not mind calling upline who called upline to add a standing order. You are in the business so you believe everything these folks tell you but I'm telling the absolute truth.

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    27. If the Duncans have so much intergrity, why did they tell so many lies? Why did Brad Wolgamott leave them if they were such awesome mentors? If someone has intergrity, why file bankruptcy instead of making good on their debts?

      I notice you avoided answering many of my questions. Is it because the truth isn't pretty?

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    28. This is why we should meet. I can answer your questions. Not all the answers are pretty, but does that make the business bad? Not at all! You are the one bringing up different people and situations you read about on the internet. That is job mentality. Let's talk about the facts because what someone else does that is a decision outside of the business is something they need to take responsibility for. If you want me to take responsibility for decisions others have made or say that the business is bad because some made bad decisions then that's just not going to happen. Its an amazing environment, but like anything with people involved there is good decisions people make and bad decisions people make. Its like saying the NFL is horrible because one player did something very very wrong to his family. You choose what to focus on. I did not get in to focus on the success or failures of others, I got in to make my own experience.

      The facts are this...how do can people we help to make their business profitable lose money? If they don't have the money to go to functions they have them on CD for $2.50 a piece with free shipping to hawaii. Is that really going to break the bank? For $25 a business owner can download every single talk on the site. That is hundreds of mp3 talks and that even includes every major function.

      I compare that to real estate investor courses my dad has done and it makes me laugh because the cost is so low compared to anything else out there. There are other systems in the business that sell the wwdb talks for $7.00 or more and they sell very well. The fact we can get download them all for $25 on mp3 or get them for $2.50 a piece on CD is amazing.

      I have a downline platinum in qualification that made over $3000 last month... do you really think he is breaking even? Seriously? Is he against mp3s and ordering 1000 CDs a month and paying over $500 a month on functions? That is just not true. What about his team. The average PV per active IBO in his business is just over 200...with fast track bonuses that's some decent income. Do you really think they are unprofitable?

      You cannot break this business down by statistics. Every organization looks different. Statistics always come by averaging everything but the way a team looks is in direct relation to the most influential leader of that team. The most influential of the team is the one working it. That's why I take responsibility for myself and my team environment. This is a great business. We didn't help many people pay off hundreds of thousands in debt last year by putting them in an environment that makes them lose, we did that by putting them in an environment where they have the opportunity to win. I take responsibility for the environment but never their success or their failure, because ultimately they need to take responsibility for their own decisions.

      Delete
    29. This is not something I read on the net. I was in the audience when the Duncans lied. This is not like the NFL where one player did something bad. This is the Duncans who lied and may have ripped off tens of thousands of people.

      Delete
    30. Yes people make money in Amway but they do so at the expense of their downline who are fed lies. Maybe you are different but I doubt that the Duncans are.

      Delete
    31. I'll be honest with you. A lot of what you talk about sounds like you were around the business in the last century, back in the 90's with cassette tapes and things.

      The Better Business Bureau gives World Wide an A+ Rating. That's not just some opinion. If there were truly a lot of people being taken advantage of don't you think that rating would be much lower? And only 1 complaint in 3 years? That is amazing.

      http://www.bbb.org/eastern-washington/business-reviews/business-opportunity-companies/world-wide-group-llc-in-spokane-valley-wa-25000084/

      Most companies join the BBB, world wide did not even seek accreditation and they still got an A+ rating. That is very rare.

      Most people in worldwide, and I speak as someone who is actively involved, make money in their own personal business. Not counting downline. That is why it works. The way they teach the business is for everyone to be profitable in their own personal business. Its about a balanced business with personal use and retail. That's the world wide way.

      I do understand that retailing in the 90's was more difficult as the main products were SA8 and there was no personal websites that Amway had that people could order off of. That was then. Now there is XS energy drink and awesome products that make it easy to create retail profit that will fund the business. People order products like XS every month unlike last century when the main product of SA8 people order once every six months.

      Why not accept the possibility that it is possible to make money in this business without downline? That's how I started. I did not even sponsor people to become profitable. I only became interested in sponsoring people until after I made a few hundred dollars a month retail profit with about half a dozen people ordering the energy drinks and nutrition. I then made my own decisions on getting educated and how much of that I put in education. None of my prior businesses funded themselves so quickly and easily. It really opened my mind to the possibilities of building a network of people that could all make a couple extra dollars of net profit a month after expenses.

      That's how it works in the 21st century.

      Delete
    32. I was in the business in the 1990's when your mentos the Duncans were lying and ripping people off. For all I know they are still doing it. Heck, Greg had his people deny he was bankrut. Do you thinks the lies and ripping people off is okay because time has passed? You never commented about the speicif issues I brought up. You have ignored them That's how WWDN dealt with issues. They re=wrote history and ignored their lies.

      The BBB rating means nothing People like you won't file complaints. That's why the rating is high.

      Delete
    33. I;m waiting for you to discuss the lies the Duncans told to tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people. Not quite the same as one bad apple in the NFL.

      Delete
    34. I'm just going to tell you how it is, I'm sure you are a great guy in person....the reality is your continual pointing to others for why you or your team did not make the business a profitable experience for all.

      Business owner mindset takes responsibility for their actions while job mindset seeks to blame others. Its no more evident then in a job. If your boss tell you to do something you are forced to do it or be fired. In this business you are not forced to do anything! Only options and you are free to choose. Just take responsibility if you were 4000PV and were just breaking even with eagle parameters. That was your fault. You were free to choose. It does not mean you are a bad guy, it just means you made a bad decision. Nothing more, nothing less.

      That is why there will always be people that succeed and quit the business, and those who choose to come back. They are free to choose.

      No one forces anyone to do anything in this business! Its all volunteer. You say the BBB rating means nothing because people like me won't file complaints. What about all the people that quit and go to do other things? Are they not free to file complaints? If there are thousands of people that were lied to why is the rating A+? It is so easy to find other companies in this industry with an F - B rating. Very few have an A+ rating. Why is that? When other companies don't provide adequate value to people for the money the people file complaints. Why is the rating A+ with WWDB? The people that quit wwdb don't complain, because most people that quit are still positive about the business, they just don't believe in their own ability to do it. It has way more to do with their own self image battles then it does the business.

      Are you absolutely certain that you are right? Like 100%? Do you really believe that you got it right?

      You are an amazing communicator, if you took your talent that you have to communicate and applied it to some business I'm sure you would do well. You get back so quickly and that is actually what it takes to be successful. My advice is to let last century go, and go be productive in something positive. I am 100% positive that I am right because I have more information then you do. I'm willing to meet you in person and we can chat about it. I know if you would just meet me in person you would get along with me and I with you. The truth comes out in the light. Face to face. Not behind an internet screen. We can keep everything confidential. If you even have a little doubt that your 100% right its worth it for yourself to meet me. Why? Because you can do so much more with your life doing something positive. I believe that. I know it won't be Amway heaven forbid, but something...

      Delete
    35. When I quit, I filed a complaint which was NEVER addressed. I did as I was advised. I was told thet Mr. Duncan was a multi millionaire so I should listen to him or I could do whatever I wanted. I listened to Mr. Duncan and the adivice I got was to never miss a function, you cannot quit standing orders, you should re-invest all bonus money into tools and functions.


      Funny, you have yet to deny anything I said but you continue to defend WWDB even though they ripped out tens or hundreds of thousands of people. I have some of Duncan's tapes where they say the stuff I am talking about,

      They have never apologized or been held accountable for their actions. The BBB rating doesn't mean WWDB teaches good stuff or makes people profitable.

      I did everything my "mentor" advised and I did not make money as they said. Who is responsible? Don't the paid leaders have responsibility when they say trust me and do as I say?

      Not to ention they lied about not profiting from functions and that they paid cash for everythig. You seem to keep missing that point.

      Delete
    36. You say I made a bad decision and I lost money even at 4000 with eagle parameters. That's thanks to the Duncans. Eagle is a WWDB parameter made to maximize profits for those who sell tools, not for the eagle IBOs. Do the math. I did.

      You have yet to acknowledge that these leaders did anything wrong. Do you deny it or are you like then where you just ignore things and hope they just go away?????

      Delete
    37. They are human, they make mistakes, but you act like they are committing fraud. That is just not the case. Do you even know how it all works? Do you know who owns wwdb? Did you know its not all the same owners as when you were in?

      Do you really know how this all works or is it theory?

      How is it they are making so much money on the CDs at $2.50 a piece and that comes with free freight?

      Who is the loser in this situation? The new IBO gets access to optional inexpensive training that is easily covered by having a few customers. Do the math, they can have a net profit with a handful of customers and using the products. By doing that they will qualify for additional fast track money too. It really is that simple.

      The way wwdb runs the business is an equal opportunity for everyone. There is no kingpin, and every decision is made with the new business owner in mind. Is it really a wise business decision to offer every talk that exists for mp3 download for only $25?? If they wanted to make money on CDs why do they allow unlimited downloads for $25?

      Name one other business that offers that kind of value for the little cost.

      Delete
    38. Does it matter how it works now if the duncans lied and cheated in the past. Yeah they sell cds for $2.50 instead of the $7.00 tapes but you need premier membership for that price which costs $50 a month so overall you sen just as much or more on the cds.

      Yeah they are human but they have never admitted or been held accountable for their lies to hundreds of thousadns of peopl. They just swept it under thr ug. Even Wolgamott walked out on them.

      Delete
    39. If the cds relly worked, they could distribute the information free on youtiube rather than seling them. Why the heck do you need voicemail thesse days? Because the duncans make money off it, not because IBO's need it.

      Delete
    40. Hey, you live in Kailua. I don't live too far away. But I guess you have quit the debate.

      Delete
    41. Someone needs to research their bankruptcy laws. Chapter 7 is total liquidation and paying absolutely nothing back. Chapter 13 is reorganization, and Chapter 11 is a rare form of reorganization that an individual rarely uses. If people "have the cash to flow to pay everything back" then they DON'T FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY. They work with creditors to fix their problems.

      The gentleman who said not to confuse Chapter 7 with Chapter 11 should really take his own advice, because he confused them himself. Yikes.

      Delete
    42. Let's be clear. Greg Duncan filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy.

      Delete
    43. "Why did Brad Wolgamott leave them if they were such awesome mentors? If someone has intergrity, why file bankruptcy instead of making good on their debts?"
      Funny, he never answered these questions...

      Delete
  13. Losers always will find something or someone to blame for quitting! Stop your crying because you were not man enough to finish what you started!! Finish!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. So are you a loser who's whining? Sure looks like it. LOL

      Delete
  14. I am going through the beginning stages I have my first board plan tomorrow night. I have seen brad Duncan speak. Its been 1 week since my first 1 on 1 with my mentor. I was hyped and now I'm worried about losing money. Well losing lots of money. Joe cool my experience is currently wwdb. They are relentlessly trying to recruit me and help them make big money. How much money did you lose over hoe long of a period? I'm in the washer right now. I don't want to miss out on big.money but do not.want to miss put on my hard earned dollars.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I didn't lose a lot of money (out of pocket) because I got up to 4000 PV. But if you aren't sponsoring people and selling product constantly,you will begin to lose a lot of money if you are attending functions and buying the cds.

      If it looks like your prospects of making money aren't that good, you will have to make a decision to press on or quit. For me, even at 4000 PV, I made the decision to quit because even at that level, I did not envision a profit coming soon. At that level your expectation from the WWDB leaders is to buy tools with any bonus you receive.

      Delete
    2. Wasn't for me I just got out. Thanks for your response man!

      Delete
  15. Joecool,
    Thanks for your diligence exposing these disheartening facts. It's been 30 years since I fell in with Keith Belknap's "Champions" group. Within 6 months, my friends and I realized the business model made no sense whatsoever. We were all LOSING money and we had the feeling we were just being milked. I only lost about $300, but still fume when I think how stupid I was.
    Keep up the good work. Wish the internet was around back then.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hey Don,

      I was in Champions too. Under Don and Patty McWilliams out in California. Which leg were you under? Just curious. BTW, Keith Belknap died in February 2001. He was 64.

      Scott

      Delete
  16. Don, you're welcome. I've kept going because the truth needs to be out there for information seekers!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Joecool, Could i pls have you mention about the book, MERCHANTS OF DECEPTION book in all of your blogs, like a closing remark written by Eric Scheibeler. You have good reach and you are very articulate in writing. Going by the comments you have helped some IBO's or prospective ones escape a lifetime of debt.I hope you have read this book which is available for free download. Hoping you have, else pls make time to read since this was the book which made me stop and think when my wife challenged me on some facts. Rgds, Vish

      Delete
  17. My ukne teaches the way you make money is show the plan at least 10 times a month. If everyone says no take the positive ones and show the products(. They have 90 days to try). How does someone who develops this skill lose $$$? Joe. Also as a 4000 how many people did you have in width.? How is your wife are you still married? Why did you group quit on you? What business have you developed on your own since?

    ReplyDelete
  18. Why don't you let all comments go? Are you scared? If your right just let it go freely both ways.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I do let all comments go unless they are racist or hateful with nothing to do with Amway. There are times when your comments may fall into the spam folder in which case I may not see them at all.

      Delete
    2. Mate, the very fact that Joecool allowed your comment to pass is sufficient proof that he is not deliberately witholding comments.

      Delete
  19. I was in WWDB and building the business. Once I found out that the main money that was made came from functions, tapes and books I could not accept the lies about WWDB being a non profit organization, that the leaders just loved to "give back". I could not look my downline in the eye when some of them were really struggling financially to tell them to buy more tapes to build the business. I quit after a small time of finding out the truth. I was told that I would never make it out there in the world. Well, I started another business, from scratch and now it's one of the largest of it's kind in the country. And, I can sleep at night.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for the comment. I agree, I was mad when I discovered the tool scam and the lies told by the WWDB leaders. That inspired me to start this blog.

      Delete
    2. Agree with you. It came as a big blow to me when i realised the money is not from the source which it is claimed to be. I too came to suspect the "Give back", since people were going out of their way to host seminars and release CD's of their success stories. It was an eye-opener when a very sarcastic comment from one of my own family members got me thinking (although initially, like a true Amway'er i defended with all the parroting of analogies i had learnt). Thanks for Blogs of people like Joecool, better sense prevailed and i haven't lost much although i dread to calculate what i might have lost in the 6 months i had been associated with this con business since i do have quite a massive pile of self help books and CDs - the very sight of them makes my blood boil.

      Delete
  20. Dudecool , it's been since 2007 youve been posting anger . Tells me you were in the biz 20+ years . It takes half the time spent on a hurtful relationship To get over that relationship. Good news your almost there . A few more & poof you will be healed . Till then ruin life for others . Be the taker . Get a life ! Was that your talk . Watch the secret . You did this . All of this ! - The study of human behavior is so simple . Either chemical or reationary or non reactionary . Which one are you? You dont have to post this . But it might do you good to read read read

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Is the truth anger? How can I ruin life for others when most IBO's make nothing or lose money? Might be good if you woke up and saw the business for what it really is.

      Delete
    2. hi Joecool...Adds to your credibility. Didn't know of the fact that you have kept at this from yr 2007. I for one have benefitted and would request you to expose any facts coming your way. Iam glad am out of this vicious circle of farce, thanks to some well meaning people like you taking time out to share the real story. Cheers, Vish

      Delete
    3. For now I will keep at it. There will come a day when I hang up the boxing gloves. But for now I am still churning out the posts and informing people.

      Delete
  21. The truth is the truth . But reinterateing it multiple x /years is issues /anger deep down . The Business is exactly that .A Business . A supplier of product/A education system /A biz owner. The success or Demise is sole responcibility of the owner . As with any Business ! As far as the dirt you have on those other people you mention . You are being hypocritical to say the least . What happened to your group that trusted you at 4000pin ??? You had to of destroyed some of them with being a quitter after sharing the vision . Do you think maybe there is some blogs just like you write ? But about you . & how come there is no mention on your blog of that guy Dean that quit ?

    ReplyDelete
  22. I love that all you have to talk about in every blog post is greg duncan filing for bankruptcy. Who cares? My friends are retiring from their jobs. I'll take their word over some free blogspot site. Check your sources. This isn't even close to a credible source. Last time I checked blogspot doesn't pay the bills.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. But the truth is that Greg Duncan, a triple diamond, filed chapter 7. Your friends are retiring? Did they turn 65? They sure aren't retiring because of Amway income. You should check your own sources. I think you've been fed too much BS.

      Delete
  23. Dudecool (because your name is not Joe!) I can name enough New platinums/Emerals/diamonds . That put your 2cents to shame . What was your issue again? Seperation angziety ??? Maybe you should check current sorces Mr. (Example. Kiyosaki business of the 21st century) Your the one that hasnt moved on . Let alone retired . Dont be judging what others can or cant do . What are you currently achieving ? BS on a blogspot . Get a Dream . The day you take this blog down . You will be able to achieve your hearts desire . Till then this mindset will only hold you hostage to the pain you feel . & thats what your putting into the universe, THE S ECRET You choose

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. You can name new diamonds? Ok, which diaonds are new in WWDB (USA)? Kiyosaki? That guy make his money selling books and seminars, not running an Amway business. If not for Amway IBO's buying his books, he'd be homeless. I'm not judging others. You're the one telling me to take down this blog. Maybe my dream was a run a successful blog.

      You just don't like hearing the truth about Amway because the truth hurts. You should worry about buying your 100 PV more than you should worry about my blog.

      Delete
    2. Mate, i might be speaking on behalf of many here. Never ever think of doing away with your good work of educating people about the scamsters running biz under the guise of Amway. I certainly must give you credit for "giving back" in the form of knowledge what you might have lost in real money but gained Wisdom. You will be blessed by people who escaped the vice like grip (if they were in the system already) or who avoided them after doing some independent searches to confirm their suspicion. Rgds, Vish

      Delete
    3. Thank you! I have not quit because I hope I can provide valuable information to people who are not aware of the lies and misconceptions of the Amway business.

      Delete
  24. Hey Dudecool, Yes I can ;) So what is the signifigance of USA?? We were talking Wwdb diamonds . Who cares if its USA /Canada/Korea/etc . As for Kitosaki ?? I said his cd . It explains business now Hello! Stay on track with the conversation . Dont try & twist the words & meaning to a statement .Example..Where did I tell you to take your blog down . I didnt tell you to do anything !! I said . (Go reread ) "The day you take down this blog " Thats a total different context from telling you . Dont switch my words around . If your dream is to run a successful blog . Describe you definition of success? This blog is a quitter party with a board housewife mentality. How do you know i dont like the truth .is that just a fire back statement . If your emotions are stable . The truth never hurts . Its just part of the process . Better than conforting lies !! You should be more worried about wasting your time feeding others negativity .you getting older you know ! Than worring about someones 100pv lol...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Too bad for you that this blog isn't going down. The truth needs to be exposed to protect people from your lies.

      Delete
  25. So why didn't you name any new diamonds? Still twisting and lying? And yes, the US is significant because there are fewer WWDB diamonds now than when I was an IBO.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Why dont you do your recent reasearch ;) lol... Wwdb is kicking ass right now . You cant even barely get in to the packed convention center meetings . Hello Ibo are building their biz. Many many pin recognition above 150.pin to diamond . You have 1 last push after 40 . You might as well start a biz. Or forever have regrets . You cant keep holding on to you stats from the 90's geeez . What is your current job???

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why don't YOU do your research. WWDB is a sinking ship. Where''s the new diamonds? There are fewer diamonds now than ten years ago. Where's Wolgamott? Kosage? Brooks? They are gone. Why would they leave their "awesome" upline. Greg Duncan went bankruot. LOL YOU go do your research.

      Delete
  27. Your site is great , Remember the one guy Dean . He quit in wwdb in 2000 something . He sold his Amway to his upline a few years ago. He was on a site for not paying child support . What is up

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Dean Kosage? Divorced, and apparently could not pay his child support. LOL

      Delete
  28. Dudecool , What current truth are you exposing ?? Your indulging in your past hate. All businesses are growing &/or changing rught now . Catch the Vision ! Shopping online 1 location called a giant mall , is here to stay ! You are either going to be involved or watch . No matter how mad you are at people /Amway/wwdb . They are all still moving forward with your praise or not . So here you sit waddling with all the winer's . Get over it! Talk about the good days !

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The truth about Amwa and WWDB. Just because you don't like it doesn't change anything. Online mall? You have no chance against Amazon.com. LOL

      Delete
    2. mate, the very fact that people are spewing venom on your blog posts, shows that they are still not sold out on the business and are looking for assurances. They are challenging you to really get behind the story and you have given sufficient references for them to reconsider(if they still have their senses). For people who have pledged their brains to their uplines (In all earnestness, God save them). Your responses are apt and hope the brainwashed, find a justifiable reason to know that their hard work on this front might lead to nothing. I hope people find a better avenue to be financially sound. Rgds, Vish

      Delete
    3. People should read through the blog and see my experiences and analysis of the business. If they still want to join, they can have at it.

      Delete
  29. Wolgamott has new diamonds. FYI , The Lady is rocking it ! Whats your excuse again ???

    ReplyDelete
  30. Lol. Better not say that in Canada . They have their own leadership conference. Since last year ! Amazon pays you nothing to shop there . Duh !!!

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Whalens? One new diamond in the last 6-7 years? How many diamonds disappeared since then? Leadership? Where IBO's lose money to see the new diamonds speak? Amazon does pay you. Haven't you heard of Amazon affiliates?

      Delete
  31. 1 is more than your lie of 0 ;) gotcha . Truth hurts huh ! Talk to you in 5 yrs . We shall see how the pity party is going LOL

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. What lies? You're the only one lying. I never said there were zero new diamonds. Go back and read it for yourself. You're the one who LIED and said Amazon doesn't pay you to shop. They can pay you through the affiliate program. Are you saying WWDB has one new diamond in the last ten years or so?

      Please go check your facts so you don't look like a liar.

      Delete
  32. Are you building Amazon ?

    ReplyDelete
  33. Tell me again how you could not sustain a 4000 pin eagle w/ 704.62 overhead for Everything . Biggest expense being 4 flights for major functions . I included cd's being 7.50 x 13 . Looks like alaska air wrecked your biz , they should of been cheaper . There is NO way this biz didnt work for you . I m sure you were over spending . Which was your own fault . Quite honestly I dont believe you stopped at 4000pin , i believe thats a cover up story for something much deeper

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Are you going to answer my question or divert the discussion?

      You're the only one lying. I never said there were zero new diamonds. Go back and read it for yourself. You're the one who LIED and said Amazon doesn't pay you to shop. They can pay you through the affiliate program. Are you saying WWDB has one new diamond in the last ten years or so?

      Please go check your facts so you don't look like a liar.

      Delete
    2. You figured wrong. We were advised to purchase 7-9 cds/tapes per week in addition to standing order.

      Delete
  34. In your own preface you said 5-7 cd xtra a week . Who's wrong ? & by the way Wolgamott left Wwdb WHY ? Cheating is not integrity , you havent answered my questions . Ive answered all your questions . As far as I knew Amazon wasnt incenting people . Now they trying to be a mlm .

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Geez, I hope you didn't quit and become a broke loser already. LOL

      Delete
  35. You haven't answer my questions. Where's the new diamonds?

    5-7 cd's/tapes were recommended and 7-9 was for the fast trackers. Wolgmaott left WWDB. That's one less diamond isn't it?

    Factor in peak travel airfare for major functions and all the other expenses and you can easily see how you can lose money building the business thru WWDB.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Joecool, I appreciate your blog. I have been approached 4 times in 3 years by Amway people. I haven't been able to find anywhere in your blog an explanation of the Worldwide groups business model? I know amway is direct sales, but how exactly does the average new guy make money if he joins worldwide or amway. I think it's important because it is one of the best ways to show that this is basically a pyramid scheme.

    The people that get really successful with these companies one could argue would have become successful anyways. They are obviously outworking the competition, and you could even say they are exceptional because they are competing with people that are like-minded.

    I met with a guy today who said I was a 'sharp' guy. He wanted to talk to me to see if he could steer me in the right direction, mentor me and help me make my dreams come true. I texted him a day prior telling him that if he was selling me amway he was just wasting his time. He still met with me, because he was worldwide, but later said he never received my text. Anyways, the point im trying to make, after speaking with the guy I saw how affable he was. I actually am self-employed alrdy and have plans of starting another business and I could make him wealthier than whatever he's doin now. The irony is hilarious. I might try and recruit him, but yeah.... People inquiring about this type of business definitely need to take your word for it.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Daniel,

      To answer your questions, Amway and WWDB are two separate entities. Amway provides products and services, and WWDB is a company that provides training and other material allegedly designed to help you achieve in Amway.

      Funny thing is that the WWDB (or any other system) is highly ineffective. There are fewer diamonds now than when I was an IBO 15 years ago. Also, the diamonds might not be outworking anyone. Some diamonds are old and tenured and may very well be making most of their money by selling cds, seminars and other support materials.

      Delete
  37. Also, in Amway, the products are generally overriced. Don't believe me, go and do your own neutral price comparisons. I think you'll agree. It's hard to sign up downline with Amway's reputation and most people do little or nothing and quit. How can anyone build a sustainable business under those conditions?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Who are you?? I know, not Steve . Why are you holding posts??

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Why does it matter who I am? I share my experiences and hep answer people's questions about Amway. Is that a problem for you?

      Delete
  39. Well.. It matters on what you define "HELP" as . Sounds like only your perception . Not business reality . Like ... Give an example of anything youve achieved in any business. & i can tell you the common denominators & what holds people up . Because good god everything that is mentioned here is the ups & downs of any business . So the content is pointless it seems . Did you ever go on any incentives trips? Because im wondering at 4000 pin . There is no way you would be an accomplished business owner ,able of advice . Wisdom takes time . So whats your real story ??

    ReplyDelete
  40. If you wwre only in the biz a very short amount of time . How can you answer questions about Amway?? Brad said on that 50,000 $ post that you are not Steve.. Which means only one option ... Timing adds up . Whom ???? ;)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I "help" people by sharing my experience and since I've researched a lot about Amway, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the subject. What I'm more familiar with is the BS that leaders teach their downline.

      And yeah, my real life identity, my name is not Steve. IBOFightback owes me $50,000, but he doesn't have the money to pay.

      Delete
  41. A piece of advise which i so unwittingly believed was - The internet is like a trash can, where losers vent their spleen on stuff they are unsuccessful to scuttle people with a dream. Had reposed so much confidence in him although had known him only for a month after being introduced to this opportunity (wasn't as smart as i thought i was) that i bought into this and never believed anything written to the contrary of what he said. I had accepted it so easily that i didn't question about those positive messages which came through the same medium - Internet. Thankfully good sense prevailed in my wife who challenged me with some startling statistics and got me reading the book "merchants of deception", which i couldn't refute given that the author was a guy who had got the EMERARLD pin. Came to realise how gullible i was and how well the system has been marketed by overlooking prudent advise

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  42. Since it has been almost a year (more for some of these posts) since the IBO's who were defending WWDB and Amway so strongly, it would be interesting to see where they are now. If they are still in the business or if they have quit and if they have grown if they still are in the business. I was in the business for 12 years and did not see any income. Only losses. If I had kept a P&L sheet, it would not have looked good at all. And as someone who was in the business for that long (my direct up-line was Ron and Georgia Lee) I can say that everything JoeCool has said is completely true. We were also told to buy extra CD's to have something to listen to because, CORE. And we also were told to practice delayed gratification on everything. Which is sound advice, but we also found out that our leaders did not practice it.

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    1. I've been participating on Amway forums for about 10 years now and blogging since about 2006. So many IBOs have come and gone. Many making big claims and boasting about how they'll be rich. They are all gone and nowhere to be found anymore.

      The ironic part is that I believe many diamonds are likely broke living check to check. After taxes and business expenses, these folks are not living high on the hog. They are likely living a middle class lifestyle and definitely not the lifestyle of the rich and famous.

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  43. Hey Joecool,
    Great blog. I was wondering if you are still in touch with current IBO's? I just got into this four weeks ago and my upline doesn't tell me to buy CD's or whatever. They don't even tell me to buy anything; it's my choice but everything's so ridiculously overpriced that I wouldn't, except I did buy a whole bunch last month for marketing purposes, which was really stupid.
    I think WWDB is a total scam; so ridiculously expensive. The first red flag for me was when John Maxwell stood on stage and for the first 10 minutes just talked about his new books. I was like, is he a pastor or a salesman? Damn. Shameless plug right there.
    Anyways, I just wanted to give a shoutout and say thanks for this blog. It'd be awesome if you could update us with a post to shut up the people that say that your information isn't current. Everything you said a few years ago seems to still apply today. I had never even heard of Amway before, but after hearing about it from various sources now, I've got to say WWDB is doing one hell of a job creating a bunch of Amway branches under the guise of something else.
    I'm super surprised to hear you've received death threats. WOW. That's some serious shit. Hope you're still alive and well. Keep us updated.

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    1. Thanks for your comments. I'm not in touch with an current IBOs right now although some of them email me from time to time to debate things. I'm glad you got something out of this. I've been running this blog for about 6 years now.

      I believe WWDB is a total scam that keeps going and going.

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  44. I guess you, Joecool, get more enjoyment out of destroying other peoples businesses than you do out of publishing the truth? I personally have not found any of your claims to be true even though I specifically looked for and am looking for them. I'm beginning to wonder about the truth of your comments and claims! Negative people are no fun to be around and I say that from experience because I grew up around so much of it! If your hoping to help someone Joecool, you missed it big time with me!

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    1. Funny how you claim that I'm not truthful, but FAIL to point out a single thing that was not true. And how is running a blog destroying anyone's business? Nobody is forced to read this blog and even if someone reads it, it is their decision to quit Amway or not.

      Maybe they see the truth about Amway and realize they've been scammed.

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  45. Ok. Now I understand why you came to some of the conclusions that tool sales fund others businesses. Here is why I say that. I DID NOT CLAIM THAT YOU WERE UNTRUTHFUL!!! GO BACK AND READ WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN!! I SAID "I'm beginning to WONDER about the truth of your comments and claims!" You have totally twisted what I said. It seems to me that you may possibly have done the same thing with the former organization that you were involved in? I don't know. Just suggesting. I don't know where people get the idea that you can make all this money selling books and CDs. I sure don't see much money in it. Can I know where this idea comes from? I check prices for the same books on amazon and in book stores and they are basically the same price there sometimes higher priced than what I can get them for through the organization that I have been plugging into. Does this explain why I'm confused as to your comments? Yes, anybody can chose for themselves. That is true, but do you have to throw out the good with the bad? Can you also recognize and respect others good experiences and realize that not everyone feels the same way you do? Just the fact that you did whatever your mentor said is alarming! Why would anyone do that? I don't care if they are a diamond, or double or triple or whatever is all out there for pin names! Each person needs to make their own decisions and except responsibility for making them good or bad. You decided to listen to your mentor instead and that proved, according to your post, to be a mistake! Why wouldn't anyone stop doing that and think for themselves and figure it out? These are the things that don't make any sense to me. I have found this to be a common thread that runs through most of the negative comments. People just doing whatever there mentor says. That's business suicide if what they are saying doesn't make sense! If they don't relate to you anymore because of it, who cares! Why should that matter? Your in business for yourself aren't you? I just don't get it! Maybe I'll see through it sometime later and then if this is still running I'll repost and let you all laugh at me then maybe it will help you all to feel better! By the way, I'm sure that some of my questions also relate to others posts as well. I thought I would make that clear just incase you have a problem with that! I also better answer your other question because you will find fault with that as well. How is running a post destroying other peoples businesses? My answer is, in the same way that you have allowed your mentor to destroy yours. Some of the posts on here are from people who have not even checked extensively into the organization that introduced them to the opportunity. I find that very interesting indeed! Why would someone "listen to a blog post" without getting proper info for themselves? People take the internet for gospel truth the same way they often take the news and that is why I said that. Remember that I asked it in question form so that you would understand that I was not making a statement!

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    1. You are suggesting that my views and comments are not truthful.

      You don't know how people make money on books? You buy them in bulk cheap and sell them to downline. CDs cost about $1 to make and they are sold for about $7 or more.

      Functions might cost $25 per person but they charge $125 or more. They make tons of money on selling tools.

      The tools would be okay except they don't work and sales do no increase because tools are used.

      How can I destroy someone's business? Is anyone forced to come here and read what I post?

      You're a funny guy. LOL

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    2. Video for eric thomas youtube▶ 7:41

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Oxz060iedY
      Feel free to watch this video. I also suggest you read chapter 7 in "The Master Key to Riches". If this doesn't give you an idea why I'm confused, then I give up. You obviously are not open to looking at this fair and square. I personally know traditional business men who spend hundreds of dollars on self-help Cds and books. My former employer for example spent over $100 on one pack of 10 CDs and that wasn't the only pack he bought! I have an uncle who is a very successful contractor who does the same. My brother does the same. How many more examples do you want? The fact is, Joecool, this idea of listening to others success and following the principles is not unique to business teams who use Amway as a supplier. This is a technique used by lots of business men who aspire to be and are successful! I suppose in your eyes these business men are being ripped off if CDs only cost $1 to make? As far as functions, I had the option of going for training for my work as well. These training classes sometimes cost hundreds of dollars for just one day! Does this help you to see why I'm confused? Nobody should be forcing anybody to go if they don't want to go! There are lots of businesses that REQUIRE their employees to be part of a continuing education program! This idea of continuing education is not unique at all!!!! "Is anyone forced to come here and read what I post?" Of course not!!! "How can I destroy someone's business?" I Just spent an hour on the phone explaining to someone how I run my business all because he heard the name Amway, googled it, found posts similar to yours and distrusted what I was saying, chosing rather to believe what people like you are saying than to believe what I was telling him even though he had no prior experience at all!!! I have bumped into this numerous times and it is frustrating at best!! Your post is not as neutral as you think and if you think it has no effect at all on someone's business, you are absolutely wrong!!! Why are companies concerned about the customer reviews on their products or services? These things do matter!!! Anyway, I am done with this craziness. You can have your fun. It's a free world. I thought you might have a logical side to appeal to but it seems that may not exist. Good luck with whatever you have decided to do with your life. I sincerely wish you success in whatever you have chosen to pursue. Each to his own . I just wish that others would respect those of us who are working hard to build an honest business.

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    3. I'm not open to the Amway opportunity because I was an IBO. I was at 4000 PV. I did everything my upline advised and even at 4000 PV I didn't have a net profit. My profits went into tools as upline advised.

      Later I started to suspect that the upline were scammers and they were interested in their success, not mine. That's why they want everyone to invest in tools, even when you're not profitable.

      I'm doing quite well, thank you. I'll be retired at the age of 55 and living quite comfortably. Compare that to the zero number of diamonds who left Amway and retired. (At least I don't know of any who retired, they all worked until death).

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    4. LOL!!!!! "zero number of diamonds who left Amway and retired?" If you leave Amway you not collecting a check anymore!!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! LOL!!! Of course you would not retire!!!! For your info, I have personally witnessed Emeralds retiring!!!! Good try Joecool!!!! You need to watch that Eric Thomas video that guy posted above! That's some good stuff!!

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    5. So go ahead and name 1 or 2 of these emeralds who retired because they were making so much money in Amway.

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    6. Steve Fratarcangeli, Reagan Bender, Paul Kopecky, David Franklin, etc. It's obvious that you blindly followed your upline and that proved to be a mistake. OWN IT!!!!!

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